Tom Chavez, Vivek Vaidya, and Habu co-founders Matt Kilmartin and Mike Moreau lift the veil on what really happened at Habu's build-out and eventual successful acquisition in just four short years as super{set}'s first-ever exit.
super{set} Celebrates First Exit: LiveRamp to Acquire Data Collaboration Software Startup Habu for $200M!
Joining Tom and Vivek in the studio today are Habu co-founders Matt Kilmartin (CEO) and Mike Moreau (COO) to give the full story behind how Habu was conceived, built out, scaled, and sold.
Habu is a leader in the data collaboration category with innovative data clean room technology. Habu enables companies to share, make sense of, and act on insights on decentralized data without compromising privacy or data ownership – enabling companies to realize the full value of their data regardless of where it resides. In January 2024, Habu entered a definitive agreement to be acquired by LiveRamp for $200 million in a highly strategic transaction.
But Habu wasn't a category leader and a $200 million company from day one. Matt, Mike, Tom and Vivek started selling before even slinging code, bringing together a kick-ass team in the beginning that saw the company through pivots to growth. Early customers like Pepsi and Disney played a crucial role in co-innovating with Habu as design partners. And Matt and Mike developed a rapport as leaders and co-founders to power the company through to exit. Learn how Habu became super{set}'s first win in the latest episode of The {Closed} Session!
Learn more about the Habu exit here: https://www.superset.com/feed/super-set-celebrates-first-exit-liveramp-acquires-data-collaboration-software-startup-habu
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session with your host, Tom Chavez.
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Welcome back to The Closed Session. My name is Tom Chavez. And I'm Vivek Vaidya. Vee, today is a very special one. It is. Right? Yep. Oh my God, the suspense has been killing me. We have two very esteemed guests with us today in the studio. Break it down, Vee. Who are we looking at here? So we have Matt Kilmart and Mike Moreau, co -founders of Haboo with us. One of our first superset companies. Welcome, Mike. Matt.
Thank you. Excited to be here. Yes, great. That was awkward. My podcast game isn't there yet. We'll get warmed up. Right. All right. Well, let's just ease into it, shall we? So yeah, like you were saying, Vivek, it was one of the earliest formations out of Superset. It's a leading data collaboration company that in many ways, well, we used to say it was unfinished business from Crux. I think that's an exaggeration. But the point is, we saw some things toward the end of Crux that...
informed what we thought needed to happen in the build out over here at Habu and my goodness Mike and Matt have utterly crushed it when they weren't crushing it they were murdering it and when they were not murdering they were decimating it and then they were killing it look at that and all of it ended in the recent acquisition by live ramp of Habu for 200 million dollars yeah congratulations you guys thanks thank you it was unfinished business by the way big win big win
And it was unfinished business, not just for me and Tom, but for Matt and Mike as well, because they were with us at Krux. So we've been working together for a long time, over 10, 12 years now. Let's go back. Let's reminisce, like Mary J. Blige for a minute. So when did we, like it's a decade? I met you in November of 2011 in the Weston Times Square. I remember running up the road. I was running late, shocker, to print my resume at the Staples.
See Tom, it's not just me who remembers dates, okay? So for our listeners, like there you just had it from that and Vivek frequently, you know, we're trying to remember a meeting or a moment and Vivek, like Rain Man, will just say, no, no, no, it was July 21st at 437. There was a light drizzle and the sun was low. Like, how do you remember this stuff? Yeah, and I don't remember the date, but in December, Matt and I had a three hour long conversation on a Saturday, I think it was, when we were...
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talking about Matt coming to work with us at Crux. Here's my sense of chronology. I was born, there was some school in there somewhere. And then there were some kids. Wait, what about the... What's your name again? I can't even remember. No, but what about Brazil and... Oh, yeah. And Oman and all those things. Those were happy moments. Yes, so you don't even remember that chronology. I remember those vividly, actually. You got me. Fodder for another podcast. But let's get into Habu. So...
Let's back it up a little bit. Matt and Mike, when we first started talking about the world of decentralized data, right, and mapping it back to crux, because there we are scooping up an awful lot of data at a time when you could do it in a single platform, and then realizing, okay, the music has stopped, there's a whole new thing ahead. Talk to us a little bit about the soil conditions for Habu and how we were sort of making sense of that opportunity at the time, because it was squishy.
Yeah, you know, the world was changing. I think at Crux, there was great value for customers and they're able to do really, really interesting things with data. But yeah, the world was changing. Like access to data was becoming far more difficult. And, you know, when you look at some of the big companies out there, the real walled gardens, they were just building the walls higher and higher. And really the utility of a DMP, you could see.
Starting to decline especially in the future years. So I mean data was decentralized people had data in the cloud warehouses They had data sitting in you know Google and Amazon and Meta and all of these different places couldn't make sense of it and so we really started to see an opportunity to You know start plugging a lot of those different gaps, you know Brands and different companies enterprises did not know how to make sense of this new world and how to operate in it
I'd argue many of them still don't, but it's becoming a lot more clear. Still the early innings, but I think we made some really good bets early and identified some big problems out there and I think we're really solving them for some big consequential brands. Remember at Crux we used to have those stickers we put on our laptops, Crux, it's your data. We were trying to promote a culture of everybody owning their data. And maybe some people kind of got it. I think most people looked at that and said, I don't know what the hell you guys are talking about.
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But the point is when Habu got started, suddenly people are very clear like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not co -mingling my data with your data. That's if we're going to do something, we're not just going to put it in a big bucket and have everybody go hog wild. There's a sense of I need to own and control my data. I'm not casting it to the winds. That was a big sea change from where we were operating. Huge sea change. And I think sometimes the marketing advertising industry likes to act like all these changes are bad.
And I would actually argue these changes are good because show me a world where a Pepsi manufacturer can go run analytics on a retailer's data that didn't exist before. In the olden days, it was middlemen, it was panels, and now they can get access to that transaction data. And I think, Tom, one of the big industry shifts was just some of the advancements in cloud technologies, where now all of a sudden you have companies that we weren't talking about.
six years ago in this industry, Databricks, Snowflake. Obviously the hyperscalers were always around because a lot of us had built on AWS back in the day. But the It's Your Data was always core to our last project. It was core to Haboo as well. And I think some of the advancements in data sharing and data warehouse technology really made the It's Your Data even more technically real. Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't until that became real that you actually started to see the...
biggest companies, biggest data owners start doing things because if you rewind the tape back to Crux, I mean, Crux was a big successful business delivering great value for a lot of customers. But when you look at true data collaboration and what was happening, a lot of that was like first party data that was being managed in the DMP. Whereas if you look at what's happening with Haboo, it's really about enterprises collaborating with each other.
And you're right, without this technology and these advancements, they never would go for it. And so I think this is a real technical breakthrough that we were on too early here at Habu. But it didn't start as data collaboration from the get -go, right? People used to use walled gardens and clean rooms and all of that. So what was that journey like? What was that transition like from data clean rooms or just clean rooms, which are confusing because you have clean rooms in other areas as well, to data collaboration now? So...
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When we launched as a company, I'll still never forget the actually we built a pretty good website, but we didn't know what to call ourselves. And so our first TechCrunch article was not the smoothest. And at the time we call ourselves a marketing data operating system. Yeah. Marketing data operating system. And we had a lot of products. How many? Oh, I think nine at one point, at least that we were pitching. And how many of them had code?
Production ready code. I don't know. A few. At least one. One. At least one. But that's company building right there. We're smiling here in the studio, but at that early phase, you were fearless about, okay, here are these possibilities, and we make liberal use of the declarative present tense when we talk about them with customers. And then you learn, learn, learn, and zoom in from nothing to... But if we're going to keep it real here today, though, Tom, we've got to talk about some of the gutter balls, because there's one particular sales call.
that Mike and I have. In fact, I know the person's name. I almost emailed her last night. She works at A &E Networks. And it was a dark moment for me and Mike. It was probably - Three years ago? February 2020. And we walked in with our nine products in that PowerPoint deck and pitched every one of them. And we got blown up. Remember it? Oh yeah, we went in order. It wasn't just like a holistic story. It was sort of like, how about this one?
How about that one? And it was no joke, like nine. By the end, I thought I was gonna cry. It was ugly. But you're right, that is company building. You know, you try something on, figure that's not exactly what the market's looking for. And you course correct. And you pivot just a little bit, just a tiny direction, each call. And then before you know it, you have something that people actually want and need and start using. So, I mean, it's natural and it's great to look back and laugh.
But in the moment, it's not so funny. No, it's not. Everybody talks about product market fit. I'm not sure enough people talk enough about product marketing story fit, right? Can you narrate what this is about? And of course, nobody knows, so you're learning quickly, right? The game isn't to be right out of the gate. It's to learn faster than the other guys. So I think Hoppa did an amazing job in that. No, I think we actually reflect on the earlier companies in the studio and what can we learn from them. And...
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Well, how do we use that to inform new company building efforts that we're launching, right? And in my mind, I think we did it just right at Haboo. Because we started with a thesis. We didn't have any customers before we started singing code. But the desire to speak to customers all the time was just ingrained in the company right from day one, right? And I look back and the stuff that we did for our first two customers,
Right? Paying customers, that is. That was early, but that formed the foundation for a lot of the stuff that we end up doing eventually. Right? So that was great. And you know what's amazing about that? Those first customers, we always remember. It was Dan Smith from ASICS. Yes. And then Jay worked for him, and Jay ended up joining Haboo two years later. Yeah, about that. Shout out to them. That's right.
Well, now let's talk for a little bit about some of the other people who joined up because we are so lucky to have a number of folks. I don't know if we can get shouts out to every single one of them, but talk a little bit about the process of finding and bringing on known quantities who can get the job done because there is a whole crux diaspora of people out there and Habu arguably soaked up many of the brightest stars. But you were also diversifying the gene pool, speaking of Jay.
and others, talk a little bit about how you brought the team together at the beginning. Yeah, so, I mean, we certainly were fortunate to work with amazing people, but you know, as you go from crux, which had maybe 170 -ish people, down to going to, you know, single digits, you need to have people who can do a bunch of different things and not be precious and, you know, really just roll up their sleeves.
And yeah, we've worked with some amazing, amazing people over the years, you know, whether it be Ted Flanagan or Jess Tansey or Rupa Gupta or Matt Karasik or Fredrik Stanichev. And they all came in at slightly different points, but they all had the quality of like just getting stuff done, like not really letting ego get in the way. Just what do we have to do? Like, let's do it. And, you know, really sticking to it.
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and not being discouraged when you pitch the ninth product and someone doesn't say yes. Like, keep coming back, try something new, come back the next day. And they didn't quit. And so, I mean, there's just a handful of the people, there are a lot of others too who came in early but had those same characteristics. And the fact that we've worked together in the past, you get to really see what people are like when things go well and things don't go well. And people that you want to be in the trenches with, it's...
pretty easy to pick them out. And so, yeah, we're just so lucky to have worked with great people before. And then it comes to diversifying the gene pool. There was actually a lot of that. Some of it went well, some of it didn't. There's a lot to be said for diversifying, but also, you can't have that many misses early on. And so I think the way we did it was exactly right, with known quantities early and then going out and...
rounding out the team with some amazing people from other backgrounds with different perspectives. Some of those were terrific, some were not. So I think we did about as well as we could. Yeah, I will say, if I'm reflecting, I did confidently tell Habu's executive chairman at one point that I was going to bet 100 % on hiring salespeople because I had hired a lot of salespeople at Crux.
At Salesforce, I think I had a hundred salespeople. So I was kind of a big deal at Salesforce. Not really. And so I knew how to hire salespeople. I think my success rate in the first 18 to 24 months, I think was sub 50 % unfortunately. And the reason why is because it's hard. I mean, literally I remember being, listen, we talked about the macro trends. I was at Salesforce. I was chief customer officer of consumer data.
And I knew the company's problems. I got to Habu, you know, a few months later, I called them up and I said, Hey, remember the problem you're telling me about three months ago? I want to meet crickets. No one wanted to meet with me. And I think, I think there's obviously value in a big company, but in those early paces, you need to eat a lot of humble pie. And I think sometimes people who come into startups are used to more infrastructure and are more products of a system and running a playbook as opposed to writing a playbook. Listen, we see this.
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over and over and over again. People from vaunted positions at large companies with minions and sommeliers and omelet chefs following them all around. And look, they look good on paper and in theory, they know the thing, they should be able to get it done. It's, as you say, Matt, it's too humbling and hard for most of them to cross over and do this absurd thing at the early stage. But I think we've also seen that a lot, forget the humbling,
you know, pride swallowing aspects to it. It's also just a mindset, right? Because you've got to pick up a shovel and do it. No one's coming to save you. And yeah, it's just the theory of the case. You look at them on paper, the pedigree, the blah, blah, it should work. And 90 % of the time they just can't get it done. It's only mindset. And I remember, I feel this way at LiveRamp right now. I know at Salesforce as well. Everyone talked about how stressful it was. I was like, it's not stressful. There's so many people to do work.
at these big companies. What's really stressful is when you're figuring out, can you make payroll? And how are you going to raise money? And I've pitched 20 VCs. By the way, all of them went to better colleges than me and they've all said no. 19 out of 20. So yeah, it's 100 % about mindset. Yeah. Well, let's talk a little bit about, because you talked about some of the people you were fortunate to bring on board, the collaboration between the two of you is really unique.
I'm not gonna get all goopy on you here in the studio, but I'm wondering if you maybe reflect a little bit on how that happened and if you're willing to really open up, tell us a little bit about hard moments between the two of you. I'm remembering, Livak, when you and I had a massive fight on the floor in front of everybody at Crux and we both were like, oh my God, we can't do this anymore because we freaked everybody out. But you know, he's a spicy, I'm very peaceful. But...
I think we all know how spicy VVAC can get. Am I right? Sure, yeah. Can I get a Haramka? Let's go with that. Takes two to tango, Tom. How have you guys gotten into this incredibly zen -like, productive yin and yang thing? Because it's not to be taken for granted. Yeah, right. Hey, you go first. I think it's, honestly, listen, I think it's self -awareness. I think it's an awareness of what are your strengths and where are your opportunities for development. And...
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I think we complement each other well. I think I'm a divergent thinker. I have ideas all the time. I have a hard time lining up step one, two, three, four. Mike is a creative thinker as well. And Harvey's much stronger at process and execution and following things through. And so I think we've just sort of complemented each other well. From a company perspective, we sort of manage different functions, but at the end of the day, it was really the six, you know,
leaders of the company who sort of ran it. And yeah, I mean, we could go into some stories if that's helpful. There's one that sticks out in my mind. I don't know if I should share it or not, but I don't know if there's anyone you wanna share. Oh, go for it. I was thinking of tough moments. You go, go first. All right, so I get nervous, like all of us do, and we had a meeting with this guy named TK.
who is the CEO of Google Cloud. And if you follow this guy, he's a really accomplished executive. I think at Oracle he bought 15 companies, success rate, 90 % of the acquisitions. I mean, he's a seasoned exec. And it's a big deal for us to get a meeting with him. We got a meeting with him because our customer Disney had wanted us to do some work with Google BigQuery. And so when a company like Disney and Target want to do something, you can get access to high levels there. And so we, there's a bunch of people from, from.
from the leadership team of Google Cloud and TK as well. And I'm nervous. I mean, to get a meeting with the CEO of Google Cloud is a big deal. And I think it was during the prep call where I just, and I think I snapped. And I just, you know, I forget what it was, snapped over something stupid. And Mike just looked at me very calmly and goes, why do you get this way, right? And I don't know why, like, because I'm amped up and I'm wired. But I mean, that's an example. I'd say one example. I don't know if you have others. Yeah. No, I do remember that vividly. I.
And I remember why that happened. And it was like, you know, some things went well. One person we didn't mention along the way who actually was an amazing hire and super early, I promise I'm sticking on script here, but Amelia Mazzoli. She was an amazing early hire. Amazing sales exec who closed, you know, most of our really big deals and, you know, certainly with somebody who wasn't at Crux and just had a different
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perspective, but really did all the work soup to nuts. And that was like an example of a great early hire. There was another function where, you know, Matt was talking about hit it a hundred percent success rate. We didn't bat a hundred in this one certain role where we just struck out time and time again. And I remember that that one situation was like, I was supposed to, we were running a little bit late on our prep.
And we'd started late and I was kind of annoyed. It was like we're just getting started late It was not in its fault It was just the circumstances and we were on like the one -yard line with someone who I had a feeling would be the great You know eighth candidate to come in the door and fill this role turn out marketing marketing. It's always a bugaboo Yeah, we have an amazing marketing department now, but yeah took us a few tries. Yeah. Yeah, so this was this is actually with Bob
our head of product marketing who was, and marketing overall is super strong. Juan's amazing, Jess, like, you know, we've got a great team there, but this was product marketing in particular, we had really struggled with hard. And so, yeah, to wrap up this story, I just remember being like, all right, I've rescheduled on this guy like three or four times now. I think he's really good. We're going to lose him. We don't need any more prep time. Matt was getting amped up, but that's...
Back to one of the reasons why we work well together, Matt brings a sense of urgency in the moment that's a lot of fire, and that's actually really good. And there are some people who you need to get worked up that way. That's not my style at all. I'm way more just like sort of the long game. I don't get up, I don't get that down, just in the middle. But that doesn't work with everybody. That's not the way you get the best results from people.
I'm never going to be that way. It's just not me. It's not how I'm wired. And so I think we complement each other well, like, you know, in sales situations, driving salespeople to, you know, setting strategy, like you got to make big bold moves. I take a lot longer. Matt will make really smart, fast decisions and they usually work really well. But yeah, to be honest, though, there haven't been that many tense moments at all. I remember that one. We talked politics on the plane today.
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We did. That one, yeah. Luckily, you just took a nap and we called it off. But that one was spicy, but that wasn't work -related. I think it comes down to, like, the only times I've really had these, yeah, maybe like personnel changes we've made and had slightly different opinions along the way. I'd say that, if I had to like pick one consistent theme, it's probably perception around people and when to make those calls.
But overall, it's gone great. And if two people agree all the time, one of them's worthless. So there we go. That's right. Somebody's not thinking. Exactly. Everybody's agreeing. Yeah. So the same kind of discussion, argument, what do you want to call it, can be had about customers as you do with people. Some customers, early customers are great. Some are not so much. So what was that journey like? Who were the customers, early customers that you guys really learned from a lot and who were instrumental?
in building out the product and getting Habu to where it finally got to. So this is a fun one for me because I feel like at the last project as well on this one, there's always certain people, I'm going to call them senior manager director levels who take a bet. They're smart, they're up and coming in their career and they get it and they take a bet. And I could go through the people at Crux who took a bet on us, who were consequential, and I could go through the people at Habu. And so at Habu, it was Pepsi, it was Mark Rises, it was Greg Carr.
It was Disney, it was Dana McGraw, Nick Winfrey and their whole team, which is an amazing team. It was LinkedIn, Logan, Alex, Activision early, ASICS early. Who else? Am I forgetting? These are really the big ones that were pushing, you know, to new areas, innovating. Those are really, really the big ones. L 'Oreal. L 'Oreal was certainly huge. Yeah, Shannon Reed, who's now running media at GM. They were a big one. They were the ones who...
got our partnership going with Amazon. Our partnership with the trade desk was driven by the team over at Choreograph. So yeah, but literally, I mean, we just named six, seven world -class brands and across those company, those probably nine people, and I'd say they were difference makers. And I think that's the thing that I think's awesome for us together is Habu is a CEO level initiative at
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Pepsi, they demo Habu to the CEO. Why? Because they're taking measurement in -house. Why? Because they're getting granular data access to retailers, sports leagues, TVs, too much money. They can not just save, but get smarter about spending by synthesizing all that data signal. It's incredible. Now, Pepsi's been on the journey, but they started with us, what, three and a half years ago? Right.
You know, some people are just issuing their first RFP. So, you know, the thing that if I could rewire the market or customers, I don't know why people just didn't try more. Because honestly, Pepsi tested with LiveRamp, us, another company called InfoSum, another company called Data Fleets, and they just try and experimented. Disney, the same thing. And now we're there.
their main solution, but like just trying and learning and moving fast. Like those are the companies that I think ultimately are getting a competitive advantage. What's amazing about that, what you just said is you didn't rattle off names of mid -sized companies. These are worldwide brands who are innovating with a company that is barely a year old. It's amazing to have earned the trust of these brands so early on.
And you're right, it's the people at these companies who are innovators, who are willing to take a bet and try out new things. And that's worked out. And for enterprise software sellers listening here, look, if you can find somebody who fits that kind of anthropological risk -taking profile at a large company, who, just like you're saying, Matt, a lot of people took a bet, joined Haboo, you have people in large companies who are taking risk and making bets.
It's career defining for them. Totally. To latch on to an innovative technology. And look, some of them now. Hannah Didems, she's got a big job at Business Insider. Johnny Silverman, he's got a big job at Google. Like we could go, Joey Trotz, he's got a big job at Privacy Sandbox at Google. Like you can go through the list, and I think these risks these people have taken, it's been mutually beneficial. And I consider all these people industry friends today. So yeah, I think it definitely goes a long way. And then again, for the builders out there, right? Like I know because I was there.
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when we were pitching to Pepsi, we didn't even have the product that they wanted to use. Like you said, they were innovating and trying out a whole bunch of different things. They had some use cases that they had in mind, but you've just got to be ready to have the conversation and not be afraid to venture out into territories where you're uncomfortable. So I think even with Pepsi or with Disney even, LinkedIn.
was later, so we probably had a much better idea of what we were doing and what we were pitching. But for the early customers, it was we were literally co -innovating with them. Yes, and we're co -innovating with LinkedIn because they are the only, with Microsoft advertising as well, they're the only ones out there doing it right now on trusted execution environment. So we co -innovated a lot with them. They were a customer a little bit later, but major, major. I mean, listen, a lot of me, I mean,
there was a part of us that thought LinkedIn or Microsoft would unbuild this themselves and ultimately credit to them. They, you know, largest retail in the world to credit to all these guys who have world -class engineers to figure out how do I take what these guys have built and make it a little bit better. So meanwhile, we, you know, there are some company, yeah. So there are definitely some people out there who want to build their own and that's okay. And when they decide to scale their offerings, maybe they'll give us a call. That's right. Hey, let's switch gears a little bit here. So.
$200 million all cash acquisition. That's not couch change. Congratulations again. Talk to us a little bit about how you made this decision. This is a biggie, right? The decision to accept an M &A offer as you're building and things are kachanking along like they were. How did you wrestle with this? How did you come out the other side? Yeah, you know, that's a hard one because the last year was fantastic. I mean, we really...
we're off to the races. Like we were assigning fantastic customers. A lot of the innovative customers that you just referenced were really pushing us in new and exciting directions. Like things outside of basic advertising and marketing use cases, the things we're doing for Pepsi, some of the LinkedIn technology that was being built out. Like these are really, really interesting new use cases. So I mean, we have, we had in...
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continue to have a very bright future. So it was hard to decide to do that. But, you know, ultimately this is a network play. Really, you know, when you talk to big companies out there, they want to understand who else is in your network. Of course, we don't have a network. We have technology. But that's still the first question everybody asks. And, you know, I will say, LiveRamp had a really compelling argument where they, you know,
They have a huge installed base of customers. We have outstanding technology and some of the world's leading companies on that, on our technology. But really there are other players out there coming into the space and we had an opportunity to tip the market. We really believe that and drive way more value for our customers together. We absolutely could have gone on to series C, kept going independently, built great technology, but I think this accelerates the.
I think this really accelerates the market around data collaboration by at least three to four years. And I would not invest in any other data collaboration startups at this point. Really? Nope. That's a strong statement. It is. You need to be controversial on podcasts. Sure, sure, sure. I wouldn't know anything about that. Helps with the ratings. So I read an article, I think Mike shared it with me or somebody shared it with us about local maximums. It was from Saster and it talks about markets and local maximums. And when you're a startup, you know,
You can't see my fingers, but up down, up down, and you want to sell during a local maximum. I believe this was the second local maximum for Habu. We had an offer two years ago, which we turned down. And so I believe this was the second local maximum. It's not just for a company. It's also for a market. I personally do not believe that there will be another local maximum. Maybe the other venture back startups in the space, maybe they'll hit the back end of this, this local maximum. And, and listen,
A lot of good people out there, you know, rising tide lifts all boats. I'm not rooting against anyone, right? I'm rooting for this market. My, my, in my heart of hearts though, Mike and I's choice, which was obviously informed in collaboration with our board, was much more around the market and less about us. We know we would have another good year. We knew we could have had a great series C. Question though, is where does the market go? And is this a massive standalone market?
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Right. And that's ultimately, I think, you know, we got a real in a, in a not a great sort of market when we're not a lot of them happening, albeit a buyer's market. We got a really healthy multiple. I mean, live rent paid almost 10 % of their market cap for Habu. So long way of saying, like, I think that trying to figure out when you're in a local maximum is the time to sell and cause selling when you're not on the up and up is not fun.
And you know, I think with with Crocs we nailed the third local maximum. Other DMPs I think might have missed the mark. And again, great people, good companies. It's hard to predict markets. Yeah, absolutely. Hey, so a lot of founders dream about exits. I gotta ask, how did it feel the day it closed? Was it anticlimactic? Was it the best day ever? Somewhere in between? Another honest answer? No, lie to me. Why don't you answer first?
Mixed emotions, I would say. There's a big exhale because it's a lot of work leading up to a sale. A lot. Like, I never appreciated before how much really goes into it. It's a lot. So, I mean, for many, many months we were really working hard on this. And so relief when it closed, you know, the live ramp team has been very, very welcoming. So there's also some relief around that. You know, you never know how it's going to go, especially when you're...
You know, competitors. We were competitors in the market. But they've been fantastic. But at the same time, then you think like, was it too early? It was just for me. I think it was the right call. I agree with everything Matt said about the local maximum. But there's this party that's like, shit, you know, you only get so many of these at bats in life and it's really hard. So...
You know, you like showing up and competing and getting things done fast and like things are good at Habu. So while it was the right call, there was that part that's like, it's really the next chapter now. And I struggled with that a lot more than I thought I was going to right at the very end. Arthur Patterson, who's one of our mentors and investors told us after the last exit.
super{set} (33:15.086)
The day after you go public or sell your company, everybody thinks you're a genius. But the reality is you're no smarter or stupider than you were the day before. I mean, there's a lot of high -fiving going on here, guys. Yeah, well, listen, I mean... And it seems to me that you actually, the two of you actually are about ten times smarter now than you actually were the day before. Yeah, I feel that way. Right? Yeah. I love LinkedIn. They're a customer and whatnot. I also believe that LinkedIn has fallen into some of the Instagram and...
Snapchat stuff that I get my kids a hard time on where people want to Pretend to be someone they want they want to they want to portray themselves the way the world they want the world to see them and And so yeah, there's a lot of attaboys. There's a lot of high -fives. It's amazing and It I will say that actually one part is kind of rewarding and it's not the the likes and the hearts and on LinkedIn it's it's the people who you haven't talked to in a long time who who reached back out and and just
say congrats and you're rooting for him. You're like, wow, that person like still knows who I am. And so that part is fun, I would say. Like it was shocking, like the different people that sort of reach out. I'm not a big pot banger and you know, I mean, I think LinkedIn's an amazing platform, but I also like Mike said, it's like we think it was a great outcome. We know we're gonna do great things with LiveRamp, but you know, a day of high fives and back to work.
There you have it. We're not that much smarter. Hey, can we switch gears into our totally unpaid for promotion? Sure. You want to add something? You might want to add something there? Yeah, actually, I'll just say one thing really quickly. You know, it's interesting with a 10 times smarter piece. You know, there were people who were like, wow, that's awesome. Like, like kudos to selling. And it's like there's this part of me that sort of resented it, to be honest with you, because it's like.
I appreciate all the people who reached out and said congratulations, but those that acted surprised. I wouldn't be like, are you not paying attention? Like this is a kick -ass company. We were like, we were on fire. Like this, this is great. How are you surprised? And then there on the flip side, there are people who are like, you sold way too early. Like too early. You guys had an awesome thing going on. It's like, oh, you were paying attention. That's great. But the people, it's the 10 times smarter thing. It's like, no, it's not like we.
super{set} (35:38.222)
Smart because we sold the whole team was smart because we're building something awesome. I guess it's a very weird Feeling around the whole ten times smarter thing, but no one's accused me of being smart personally I know it's Matt. No, I totally identify with that I think I remember that feeling where there's this like surprise and a little bit of disdain or something where they look at you like I thought I just always thought you were bleeding from the head. How did that happen? Yeah. Yeah, who did you trick? Exactly. Who did you do?
Yeah. It's fun to be able to tell your kids though, see, I'm not an idiot. I made a good choice leaving Salesforce. Like so, and you know, at Salesforce, I probably gotten laid off. So you're welcome. And let's have a moment of appreciation for the spouses too, who are supportive every step of the way. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's risky company building is a family and Fred venture family and friend helps you keeps you grounded.
It helps with your mindset. It helps with just being a more whole person. And I couldn't agree with you more in terms of the importance of family, friends, community. Yeah. Okay. So the totally unpaid for promotion. You just went through an M &A. It's very stressful. We spend a lot of time on this podcast talking about self care and in company building, having people take care of themselves as they take this absurd journey. What was your best kind of self care habit or moment?
when you're going through the stress of this acquisition. So remember before when you said the, how did I feel the day off? So I had had headaches 19 days in a row from December 31st until January 18th. I went and got a CAT scan because I thought maybe there's something going on. Nothing was wrong. I remember that, Matt. Stress. It was just stress. The day after the announcement, it's gone. The mind is an amazing thing, which...
not many people understand and literally it was all just stress headaches. So I've tried a lot of different things. I'm not sure I've cracked the code, but we've tried a lot of different things. I think my latest thing I've actually become a cold plunger. Are you just saying that because of him or Tom? By the way, you know we have a little East Coast, West Coast thing going on here. And so...
super{set} (38:01.71)
Tom's cold plunge is a little different than mine. Sure, sure, sure. We have an ice saw and we cut a hole in the ice in Walden Pond. You're crazy, man. Damn. You're crazy. Are you really? I used to think he's crazy because he goes out in the Pacific Ocean. No, the Pacific Ocean is probably in the 50s, 40s. It's 54 at Stinson Beach. Yeah, we're like high 30s. Oh, God. You guys are crazy. I am in awe. And I... Good for you, Matt. I'm all about the cold plunge. I started doing it a while ago and it is transformative, right? It 100 % is.
Mike wins triathlons at Orange Theory. No, no. I'll take... Yeah. Not a cold plunger. I'm never doing the cold plunger. Matt's asked me a handful of times. It's just, it does not appeal to me. But it is funny, on the flip side, Apple will share, they share with you your health stats. Like, I just got a push notification the other day about health stats for the past year. And no exaggeration, my activity last year dropped
50 % seems a little off to me, but still, like it dropped quite a bit and I didn't sleep as well. And yeah, I just didn't feel well through this entire process because it started many months before this closed. Like there's a lot of different moving parts to this whole, whole story. And so yeah, not sleeping well and not exercising, it took a real toll. And so I'm trying to get back at it now, but it just...
To clinch the point, it underscored how important having those like self -care routines really are for you. So any habits or products you want to recommend for that or just exercise more and sleep more? Yeah, get out and move. I think that's it. Just don't sit all day long. Get out and move, you know. I have six wearables. You have six wearables because one isn't enough? Fit, fit, whoop, just bought.
An Ember, a sleep one? I forget the other ones. This is the totally unpaid for promotion part of the podcast. Which one are you going to boost? Who do you like? This is the consumer or personal equivalent of the silo data problem. Totally. If only we knew a venture studio that could start something. That's right. Got me thinking. That's right. So speaking of starting something, one of the things we say at the studio is people product customers in that order. So we are...
super{set} (40:30.542)
almost like obsessed with this idea of people first. As you were building the team, you talked about some of the early people on the team, right? And we talked about Crux and Crux had 175, 180 people, but not all of them could be hired. So what kind of attributes were you looking for as you were bringing on these early people at Habu? Yeah. And by the way, I think I just want to clarify one thing. Not everyone from Crux worked out. Like, let's also just have a...
be real about that. Like, you know, we... Not just a taboo, by the way. Yeah, Mike was talking about diversity. And when we talk about diversity, it's obviously gender diversity, role diversity, style diversity. That's not always valued. Work experience diversity. So there's all different kinds of diversity. And so, yes, Crux was a great company, but just because people... I mean, you said it best. I remember the New York office, and I don't want to quote you because I'm going to mess it up. You said something about...
No one gives a shit if you hit a home run at your last at bat. Literally, you put on your uniform again and you get in the batter's box, which is a baseball analogy. And it's true. No one gives a shit. And so for us, I think... You know, we did the values, the core values, and obviously SuperSut has some playbooks around this as well, and we took some of that and iterated and made it our own as well. You know, I think the two biggies for me...
And you can chime on grit is the biggest one for me. It's just at the end of the day, it's just do you have the hotspot to get up and go? I think, Tom, you say it's the 20 push ups. It's are you a self -starter, regardless of whether you're shipping code, whether you're trying to get marketing leads, whether you're trying to sell, whether you're trying to be D deal like are you a self -starter? Do you have that grit and the tenacity to just keep going? That's number one for me. And I'd say collaboration is another biggie, not just because we're in the collaboration business, but also because, you know,
We, you know, you have to be able to work with others, different styles and get things done together. So those are some of the biggies. Do you want to elaborate on some of those? Yeah, no, I agree with those. But, you know, I think empathy is a big one as well. So if you think about when the business launched, like, you know, we formally came out as Haboo just before COVID hit. A very distributed team. So collaboration is key. Grit is key. But also empathy. And I feel like during...
super{set} (42:56.622)
the pandemic, things really came together. You know, a lot of companies were struggling. I think Matt had some super innovative ideas around how to support people. And it was a really fantastic time. So the, I would say that's probably the biggest one that stands out to me because people actually cared about their colleagues and it carried through, you know, keep going back to crux and the 170 people. Habu was never.
We were, you know, at our peak a third of that number. So you actually got to know your colleagues really well and who they were. And so people like, and it wasn't until we got closer to the acquisition and it was announced that I really appreciated how much people liked being part of Hobbit. And that was actually, I mean, I knew people liked it, but it was a big part of their identities. And it was for us too, obviously, but how much it...
meant to people, it was really special. And I think it's that empathetic quality. Like, you actually like working with your colleagues. Like, oh, it's this person again. It's like, hey, great, you know? How are you doing? How's your weekend? There's just this, to clinch the point, a human quality that all the people at Habu have. And that really made it special too. Number three, behind grit and collaboration. And we did have the industry's best culture officer, Jess Tansey. Oh, for sure.
Literally, like, she's amazing contributor in many different business functions across BD, collaborations, partnerships, marketing. Ultimately though, she was, I think, the cultural glue that kept the company together. She's remarkable. Boston. She's the cultural pillar of the company. Big Pats fan. Shout out to you, Jess. No, she's amazing. Mike and I bought our tickets for Tom Brady's last game, right?
50 yard line beautiful. Yeah. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, she knows a good sports town. She's a Celtics fan, too. She's not a Warriors You know everybody has their imperfections. I don't know how you refer dream Hey, so I want to go back to something you've touched on maybe we can learn from this because as you said not everybody Because sometimes there's the the diaspora of crux and we've gotten a lot of leverage and then we've seen When it just hasn't worked. Do you care to?
super{set} (45:21.806)
share a theory or an expla - like what has gone wrong and maybe we could kick it around. Again, we're not speaking in specific but what - any ideas or explanations as to why somebody could work in that context at Crux, come to an early stage build out and then you look at it and it seems like, but of course they'll get it done here, but they haven't. So what explains it? I think it just comes down to desire. I think -
We have 10 ,000 working days. During those days, you optimize towards different things. Are you optimizing towards learning, towards wealth, towards lifestyle or whatever? And you have to be clear on what you're optimizing towards. And if you're optimizing towards lifestyle, which is a fine thing to optimize towards at a right time, it's hard to do a startup. And so I think maybe, and everyone who worked at Haboo, whether they were XCrux or whether they were a different company,
They added value along the way, but ultimately whether, you know, what happened to us and why we love Amelia was our entire sales team quit. Our CRO quit. We had an all -star sales rep quit. Somebody else. Amelia was the only salesperson left. I still remember I had lunch with her and I was like, so I got some news. You're the only sales person left at this company. And so.
Listen, we parted ways with all those good people. They're doing great stuff right now at other companies. But I really think it just comes down to what are you optimizing for at that given time? And if it's not something really near and dear that you're passionate about related to that startup, then it's not going to work out. And, you know, each stage of a startup is very different. Like if you're day one and you just have to swing a cat and just come up with something, that's one skill set. Once you've started to like...
get some product market fit and get going. Well, that's a different type of profile that you need. And so just because somebody was successful at a stage you worked with them at a prior company does not mean they're going to be successful at the stage you're at now. And like, I think being really open -eyed and honest with yourself and with that person about it is critical. We all have our strengths and, you know, being effective in a five person company versus a 50 person company,
super{set} (47:45.326)
That's different. And then, you know, obviously it gets, gets even bigger from there. But yeah, it's really the different stages and different skill sets and they didn't always match up. You know, well, it's Vivek's line, right? I think I'm going to add to that. I think I've seen lots of people let it go to their head. Whatever success they've achieved in the past, it goes to their head. But the market, to Vivek's point, nobody gives a shit what happened in the past.
A prominent venture capitalist once said, you're as good as your last fiasco. Right? So, so you, it's very humbling. And I think some of the people that we thought could cross over and get the job done. I don't know. My, my idol theory is that, and to your point, Mike, they showed up a little bit later. Right. And they, in their minds, they slayed the dragon, but they didn't realize, no, you're, you're actually riding along all of the.
You're harvesting all of the seedlings that were planted before you showed up. I mean, for what it's worth, I hated the pre -product, pre -revenge stage. I really did. It was so hard. I thought I had done it at Crux. I came to Crux, we had three customers. We had just under a million of ARR. And so I thought I had done it, but I actually hadn't because what we had at Crux at the time was we had an ICP. We were going after publishers. We had a product. We had a couple of customers.
And it was execution time. Those first, when we had the marketing data operating system and nine products, it was not hated. It was just super hard. I was stretching new muscles. And when you try new things, it's hard. And so that was hard time. That A &E call was rough. But hey, you have a story to tell now. There are plenty of those. Yeah. What was any else to cover you? Oh, yeah. Liberty Mutual Insurance. I remember that one. And they were right.
Which made it even worse. Like, because you have a theory of the case and it's like, no, no, but here's how we're different. And it's like, no. You know, just because you have like a new way of approaching something or like something that's new and different, is it really critical? So one of the things, actually bring it back to data collaboration for a minute. One of the things that I always worried about. So when it came time to like, you know, do we sell or do we not? You know, I always think...
super{set} (50:08.046)
Who's waking up today in data collaboration is in their top three priorities, okay? And so when you're honest with yourself about that, there are the trailblazers and those glassbreakers that Matt already went through with our customers. Like, that's awesome. How many other people out there are waking up thinking, that's in my top three? So when you go into someone like Liberty Mutual, and we have new really cool things to offer, but it's like,
Oh, is it really that different than I'm getting for my CDP or I forget the other platforms they were. Oh, it was personalization engines. Yeah. Like content personalization engines. Like, okay, I guess you're right. Why add another vendor? It's like, you really need one more in the mix. So you have to stub your toe a lot. And I don't think everyone's cut out for that at all. And, uh, I mean, some of the people, yeah. I mean, look, some of the people didn't respond well to that and you have to be willing to get back up at bat for that.
50 first strikeout, but then eventually you figure it out and it becomes way more fun. Humbling. Very. It is very humbling. Getting told no, no, no, no. I know you guys don't like country music, but there's a country song by Tim McGraw called Be Humble and Kind. It's a good... I don't not like country music. Tom doesn't like country music. But if you recommend that track, Matt, I'm gonna listen to it. Alright. I'm sure it's a great track. The lyrics are great. Okay. So what's next? What are you guys doing at LiveRamp? Loving it, actually. I give LiveRamp a ton of credit.
At Akamai, we bought companies. At Salesforce, we were bought. We walked in at LiveRamp day one and yes, the diligence was exhaustive, but it was for a purpose. They delivered a 20 page Google doc to us on day one, shared access, and said, here's what we've come up with as a plan. Let's co -author this thing. I give Dave Eisenberg, Scott Howe,
Kimberly, Vihan, Sharon, their team a ton of credit. Not just for the product plans and the go to market plans, but for the people plans too. And they've been very organized and it's been smooth. Yeah, we've had our hiccups, right? It's normal, it's hard, but they're working really hard. And I'd say what's been pretty eye opening to me and actually has exceeded my expectations is how positive the market's responding. Literally.
super{set} (52:34.798)
100 % of our customers sign their contract over to live for him. Pipeline is insane, right? How much it's growing. And it's just proof of the hypotheses that live ramp had, why they, you know, ultimately, you know, kept persisting and we decided to it made sense. And it's kind of validating to see. And that's actually partly why I think about the market if there will be another local maximum, because I do think it's a networked plan. I think there's a moat there.
There's other big companies are trying to build a network as well. And so we'll see. But early pieces are good and we're five or six weeks in. So it's still but but honestly having a document like that and having a clear integration plan. They're keeping Habu separate. The only group that's integrated is sales and because they want our engineering and product team to keep innovating, innovating, innovating. Obviously, we're collaborating with them. But Habu is staying as a standalone for at least
the first two or three quarters and then we'll sort of reassess. But so far so good. Would you? Yeah, no, it's been fantastic. Personally, what's next there? Look, I really want to find ways to continue to innovate. Like, that's big. And I agree with Matt, it's great they're keeping us standalone. I love that. Like, that's not necessarily being standalone. I love the innovation piece. That's what I...
Loved about the Habu experience. Like that's what was awesome about being part of SuperSet. Like it was nonstop innovation, bouncing ideas, you know, off each other and just, just iterating so quickly. And I think LiveRamp has amazing identity assets, fantastic activation. I love what we've built. I really, really hope we don't screw this up. Meaning like I think the market's ours to take. Meaning collectively Habu and LiveRamp and...
Yeah, I hope we keep innovating at that pace that our customers hired us for. That's why they chose us. We were building what the market needed, even ahead of the market. And I hope we're finding ways to keep doing that. Like, I don't want to slow down. I want to like speed up. So it's too early to say how that will go, but all signs are quite positive. That's awesome. I don't doubt that you will do exactly that. We have to. And kudos to LiveRamp for...
super{set} (54:56.238)
for doing it the right way, those are all very promising initial conditions post -close. A lot of companies don't get that right, so really great. Matt, Mike, so great to have you with us today. Fun to be here. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. In person too. I know. And thanks for all the support over the years. I mean, you know, SuperSet and obviously you guys and Jeremy Klein, for sure, have been just so critical to the build out of Hobo. I mean, obviously you're there at design time from day one.
But even as the company grew and you know, you supported in much different ways, like the strategic guidance was really, really helpful, challenging with some real product questions that had to be faced. And you know, we talk about all the time, you know, a critical decision that was made together last year, about 12 or 13 months ago, very strategic market and product decision that honestly, I think if we didn't make that decision together that...
Oh, tell them in Vegas. We're tell room in Vegas. Oh, I don't Bellagio. I think it was the Bellagio. I remember that room. Yeah, and like That was a that was a turning moment for the company terraform for Data collaboration, but it was it was fixing ideas that made what we were doing bigger not being so dependent on one certain technology and Spreading our wings more if we didn't make that decision
we would not be where we are right now. And so I just want to say thank you and mention Jeremy. He doesn't get the same fanfare that you guys get, but he's critical. Jeremy's the man. Jeremy Klein. Yeah. So he really, you know, helped us scale without hiring an army of people. He like farmed out work to contractors and partners and clinched the point, did a lot of things that allowed, you know, all of us at Habu to focus on like,
building the business and innovating and doing new things. So just want to say thank you for all the support. I know this is not a plug for SuperSat, but I will say I got in touch with the CEO of Forester when I was at Salesforce. And when I was at Salesforce, I was deciding to make a move and I was working with an engineer and I was like, I'm going to go do something because the world's ending. No one can, the data signal is gone. The cookies are it's over. Like,
super{set} (57:19.758)
It's time for innovation. Big companies can't innovate fast enough. So I was working with an engineer and I went and I got a meeting with the CEO of Forester, met him for a coffee and I asked his advice. I'm like, so here's what's going on. Here's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking I'm going to start my company. But I'm staying at Salesforce and he looks at me and he goes, and this guy's the founder of Forester. He goes, what do you just want to sit around and make money for Salesforce shareholders? You want to go out and, you know, do it yourself. I was like, all right. So there was my go for it.
I'd never done it before though. I mean, I done, I done Crocs as a CRO, but I'd never, you know, and to be able to work with world cast, world -class engineers and not worry about capital puts us in a position to just focus on execution. And the, the big thing I'll say is I thought time was of the essence, cause I knew these tectonic changes were shaking the whole industry. I knew they were coming fast and to literally not have to worry about world -class engineering and not have to worry about capital are removing two
Pretty big variables. And so the mentorship along the way was awesome as well. So I just wanted to add what Mike said. So thank you and it's been fun. I hope we have a chance to come back and do the podcast again sometime. Well, thank you. Thank you both. Yeah, no, listen, you guys landed it, killed it, did it. How awesome for us to be helpful and there and useful in moments when we could be. So your Habu is a big, big proof point for SuperSET. So we're thrilled for you and congratulations again.
Thank you. All right. Thanks guys. All right. Well, to any talent out there with considering working with us, visit our site at www .superset .com. Thanks for tuning in. Be sure to subscribe to future episodes at the closed session .com. We'll see you all next time. See you guys.